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Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 11:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
ACY GTMI wrote:Yeah, I got trashed the other night and went a little too far, maybe, but the issue remains.
EVE is not a game. There is no such thing as a 'game'. What we call 'games' are extensions of reality.
Originally 'games' were used as teaching tools and they still are.
'Video games'. as many people like to refer to them, allow us to learn things in any number of virtual universes. Emphasis on 'LEARN THINGs'
What do I learn from suicide ganking a miner?
Maybe you have a better answer, because I don't think I would learn anything.
No, there is no such thing as games for 'fun' anymore.
If you aren't learning, you're falling behind.
Eve is a game and it's supposed to be fun.
Games can be used as teaching tools for young children, but not really for adults.
There's not much you can learn about the real world in a fantasy MMO.
If you don't want to waste your time playing games where there's not much to learn other than how to play the game itself, then I'd suggest giving up MMO's and spend more time in the real world where you may feel your time is being used more productively.
For a lot of people MMO's are a bit of escapism or just somewhere to relax, afterall the TV is generally crap these days. |
Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 12:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
JitaJane wrote:gfldex wrote:ACY GTMI wrote:What we call 'games' are extensions of reality. And how does chess extend reality? ACY GTMI wrote:What do I learn from suicide ganking a miner? That any food chain got a beginning and an end. Chess teaches a lot actually. How to balance tactical versus strategic demands of a situation. how to control terrain to reach your objective. How to psychologically abuse your opponent to achieve any of these ends. How to learn from your mistakes and adopt your opponent's strengths. When a sacrifice is valuable and when it is a waste of resources. How to manage your time. How to manage your opponent's time. How to carry a situation while maintaining your focus on the solution. Errm I play a bit of chess. It does not however teach morality....
Chess is not a good example, Chess is just a strategy game. The strategy is confined to the rules of Chess.
In the real world, strategy is not confined at all.
Edit: You could argue that strategy is confined to the tools/things that you have available to you, but that's not the same thing as a game with specific rules. |
Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 12:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Games can be used as teaching tools for adults. In fact society is using the MMO genre of games for advertising and marketing as well as social interactive behavior studies. (The TED talks, google it, have a wide range of talks related to games, gaming and the MMO markets) There is also a huge advantage of using games to understand the psychological behaviors of people as there are less moral and ethical restrictions so there is a huge freedom in game play that is unallowed in regular human behavior where punishments are more severe and restrictive on general behavior. So you get a "world" lacking inhibitions and can see and study the underlying human psychology once the restrictors of behavior are taken away.
To me this is useful in the express reason I can see what people would WANT to do but cannot do in real life. It shows me a truer picture of human desires, rationality and reasoning than the "real world" would. So I, as an adult, can learn hordes from a very interesting game.
They maybe studying games and peoples behaviour in games, but I don't see how they can gain any real information as the information will be specific to people playing games.
People act differently when rules/laws are enforced compared to when there are no rules/laws enforced (not all people of course).
But playing a game and the behaviour ingame will be different again, because of one major issue, which is there's no face-to-face confrontation. |
Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 13:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:Stella Dust wrote:
They maybe studying games and peoples behaviour in games, but I don't see how they can gain any real information as the information will be specific to people playing games.
People act differently when rules/laws are enforced compared to when there are no rules/laws enforced (not all people of course).
But playing a game and the behaviour ingame will be different again, because of one major issue, which is there's no face-to-face confrontation.
For starters a persons behaviors and underlying reasonings and rationalities for actions is a very real informative commodity. Not just in motivators but also in placing restrictions on people, the reward/punishment factors. They also provide a good estimate on psychological makeup of people as well as what inhibitors can be broken when. Economically you can study market dynamics on a whole different level due to being able to keep track of every factor. This gives economic breakdowns much more clout. Face to face isnt as much of an issue as you might think but can be accounted for if and when needed. Still the fact remains theres any different ways to learn even as an adult though gaming and especially MMOs in particular. Id highly suggest you go to the TED website and check out a few of their talks about MMOs and gaming. Youd be surprised what people are and will learn from games.
I may take a look at that website sometime even though I doubt the quality of its data.
Some people treat MMOs like they're real with real life values, others treat them like fantasy, which they're supposed to be. So first off they would have to seperate which is real from that which is fantasy. In fantasy there are no inhibitors (except game rules).
MMOs are addictive if played for long periods of time, in part it's a bit like a gambler, just a bit longer see what drops, or I'll just do another mission as I not tired yet, then another etc. It can also make you a bit short with people in real life if you are concentrating on something ingame and you have someone trying to interrupt what you're doing.
But I can honestly say that no MMO has taught me anything new other than how to play the game itself. |
Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 14:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
The reality isnt whether we deem the content as real or fantasy but that we deem the players and their ideas, thoughts, desires, wants, wishes, fears, like and dislikes as real things. And if your thoughts are deemed "real" entities then your actions, as extensions of your thoughts, are also real even if you apply them to an unreal situation such as the roleplaying aspects of what you consider fantasy gaming. As you are in essence roleplaying your character within the rules of the game.
I disagree with this and this is where I see the data that they collect as unsafe data.
People do not always play their characters in a way that reflects what they're like in real life. Some characters are played to be an almost opposite (or mix) of what they're really like.
Fantasy is just that fantasy, if they try to extract real life answers out of fantasy, their results are likely to be the same too, just fantasy. |
Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 14:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: I would have to say how unfortunate for you and then I would suggest going beyond the set thinking of what your idea of learning consists of and going deeper into what the game holds for not just you as a person but for people in general. You might be amazed at what you can learn when you think about something a lil differently.
Nearly forgot this;
I don't generally have set ideas, they can and do at times evolve when new information comes to light (just like science). Information that proves the old ideas need modifying.
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Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.11.09 14:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Long John Silver wrote:Ganking miners is a bit like beating up a pizza delivery boy in RL. Just because you can do it, should you? This sums up your morality dilemma. In RL you probably won't do it. Besides there are consequences... he might go and tell someone bigger than you what you did, and you'll also have to clean all the blood off your clothes which is just SO inconvenient. In EVE, many people will - because they can, they only reveal their in-game persona AND you'll never ever know who they are in RL so they never have to face any physical consequences. Such is human nature.
There are no real life morals in fantasy, unless you wish to add them. |
Stella Dust
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.09 14:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: No your right but therein lies an interesting question on the human psyche. If you are playing a role other than what you normally are like in real life is that not too a portion of your real psyche?
I'm sure there are people who would like to think so, but I don't think so. Playing a role that's not what you are like in an RP sense takes a lot of effort, it's not something that comes naturally at first. Lazy way to RP is to bring a lot of real life baggage with you but even then as it's a game there will still be elements that go against what you're really like.
Is the game real or fantasy to you, that will determine for the most part how you will play your character.
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: See theres something called the subconscious..
Subconscious gets blamed for far too many things.
If you're actually RPing a character you have to make a conscious effort to do so.
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: So the data isnt at all unsafe, its really on how your looking at it.
If it's how you look at it, it's not factual it's subjective hence unsafe. |
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